philwarner
Adjunct
Reged: 02/24/12
Posts: 130
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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Years ago when I rode a Yamaha Cross Country Sport 305 on the road and in recent years of trail riding dirt bikes I don't remember ever being aware of counter steer or using it: I just leaned in the direction of the turn. But after a friend told me to try counter steering on my America I was amazed at how quickly the America starts to lean and turns toward the side on which you push the bars and what little pressure it takes. The whole idea seems counter intuitive - to push forward on the right grip to go right - but it certainly works.
So....Does anyone have a simple explanation of the mechanics involved? I assumed it had something to do with moving the front tire contact patch off the line of travel, but the effect is so immediate and so strong that it doesn't seem the contact patch could be shifted so quickly. 
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Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Jet black, Corbin seat, TORs, 31K
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Zmilin
Saddle Sore
Reged: 03/02/07
Posts: 5109
Loc: Sammamish, Washington - USA
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
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07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
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amglo
Adjunct
Reged: 05/26/11
Posts: 459
Loc: Fresno, California
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Most cycle safety courses will teach and explain this method, it's sometimes referred to as "Push/Pull".
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Ride like you mean it.
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mcfcinusa
Greenhorn
Reged: 05/17/12
Posts: 45
Loc: Fallbrook, Calif.
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when you turn to the right, you push the right grip and as the bike leans to the right the contact patch on the tire moves to the right of the centerline of the tire. As this happens the radius from the wheel spindle to the ground gets smaller (because the tire is radius'd and not flat like a car).the tire diameter has in effect become smaller and offers less resistance. hopefully this makes sense to you. as it's not easy to explain it. car tires being flat across the tread can't lean and make the contact patch move left or right of the centerline like a bike can Des.
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Keith
Stickman Yogi
Reged: 03/21/09
Posts: 11611
Loc: BC, Canada
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I explain in a different way (dyslexia perhaps). Pull on the right to go left and visa versa, especially evident at high speed cornering. But with our wide bars it's quite obvious to me that there's a definite opposite pull while cornering hard, albeit ever so intuitive. And like you, back in the day I was not even aware of something called, "counter steering." But now that it's a well used phrase in the motorcycling community, it does actually make sense.
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Live to love, love to live.
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philwarner
Adjunct
Reged: 02/24/12
Posts: 130
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering
Thanks, I had read that last night including the gyroscopic part about input resulting in a 90 degree reaction (like the little string pull gyroscopes we played with as kids) and my mind is still seeking a simple vector diagram to explain what happens at the contact patch. Oh well, The scientific explanation of rainbows pales in comparison to the sight, so perhaps all I need to know is that it works the way it does. I seem to remember a much squarer tire section on my old Yamaha than the rounded profile of the Metzelers on the America, but I don't think that was the difference; perhaps it is the weight difference and riding position and body english would turn the Yamaha faster than the America.
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Phil in Northwest Arkansas
04 America, Jet black, Corbin seat, TORs, 31K
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12689
Loc: Long Island, NY
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I think of it like this: If you're going straight, and you push right, the front tire wants to go out from under you (and the CG) to the left and tip the bike to the right, hence the lean. And then as you lean, all that tire radius stuff comes into play, plus your bars tend to flop back to the right once leaned, and you turn. That's the official explaination from an engineer 
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Soren
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 12034
Loc: Beaverton, OR
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Quote:
I think of it like this: If you're going straight, and you push right, the front tire wants to go out from under you (and the CG) to the left and tip the bike to the right, hence the lean. And then as you lean, all that tire radius stuff comes into play, plus your bars tend to flop back to the right once leaned, and you turn. That's the official explaination from an engineer
That can't be from an engineer, it was less than 2 pages. 
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•Triumph Connection
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Grzegorz
Freelance Jedi Knight
Reged: 09/03/05
Posts: 3582
Loc: Poland-Gdansk!!! UK-Oadby
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If any of you is watching speedway then u can see counter steer in pure version
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Grzegorz ......55 cubic inches
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25172906@N06/ 904 Wiseco,813 TPUSA cams,TTP ignitor,gutted airbox,"breath" air intake,Keihin CR-S carbs,Black Epco exhaust,SS wheels
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erle
Loquacious
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: 25-22-28-0***-****0
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And HERE I THOUGHT it just ALL CAME NATURALLY !!! 
I can turn left & right, and never had a course on steering since my dad let go of the back of my bike at 3 years of age. 
IS there ANY OTHER WAY to turn !??
(and YES, when you go as fast on your pedal bike as I did @ 3 yr's, IT IS THE SAME AS MOTORCYCLES!  )
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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oldroadie
Check Pants
Reged: 05/05/07
Posts: 5972
Loc: Alabama USA
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I always think of it as kicking one leg out of a tripod, that naturally leans the bike into the turn and then you input steering changes to maintain the line.
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A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Greybeard
Monkey Butt
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 7857
Loc: Charming Clovis NM
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This has to do with an effect called gyroscopic precession. A spinning gyroscope will act as if any pressure applied to it's rim occurred 90 degrees around it's rotation.
So, pushing on the right handlebar puts pressure to the right (from the left) at the rear of the wheel and to the right at the front. Moving 90 degrees around the rotation of the wheel, tips the top to the right and the bottom to the left, leaning the bike to the right. The weight shift caused by the bike leaning causes pressure on the right side of the bottom of the wheel. Moving around another 90 degrees, this pressure causes the wheel to turn into the lean, so the bike makes a balanced turn to the right.
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Pain is nature's way of saying, "We know where you live".
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12689
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
That can't be from an engineer, it was less than 2 pages.
True, but it probably had a spelling error or two 
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6139
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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If you're driving you car and turn one direction you will feel centrifugal force move you in the opposite direction.
Same thing on a bike; you turn left, centrifugal force exerts right. The bike, being balanced on two wheels leans right and moves that direction. It doesn't take much of a counter-steer to effect that movement and once you're leaned, more counter-steer leans you further.
It doesn't work at low speeds due to the lack of gyroscopic effect to which Greybeard referred.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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Leithal
Learned Hand
Reged: 08/01/09
Posts: 1002
Loc: Meridianville, AL
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Hey! How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does a sun set? How exactly does a posi-trac rear-end on a Plymouth work? It just does.
(JOE DIRT'S DAD)
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6139
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Plymouth didn't have posi-trac. That was a GM term. The Plymouth would have had a "sure-grip", and Ford, a "trac-lok".
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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Leithal
Learned Hand
Reged: 08/01/09
Posts: 1002
Loc: Meridianville, AL
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Quote:
Plymouth didn't have posi-trac. That was a GM term. The Plymouth would have had a "sure-grip", and Ford, a "trac-lok".
Well guess that will be the last time I quote a movie without doing some research. 
Naw, probably not. 
Thanks for the early morning auto terminology lesson
Now its time for coffee. 
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erle
Loquacious
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: 25-22-28-0***-****0
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No Matt, YOUR correct.
ANY real White Trash would KNOW that ALL limited slip differentials were called "Posi-Trac" 
You MUST consider the source of the reference.
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6139
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Good point erle. 
And in context it fits too.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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The_Dog33
Fe Butt
Reged: 02/01/07
Posts: 16991
Loc: NE PA USA
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Quote:
No Matt, YOUR correct.
ANY real White Trash would KNOW that ALL limited slip differentials were called "Posi-Trac"
You MUST consider the source of the reference.
I like you're use of your.
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I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
some shots of our bikes
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erle
Loquacious
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: 25-22-28-0***-****0
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On this site, with the RARE exception of one or two, I find comfort knowing I'm in good company! 
(Ian, plenty of examples to follow)
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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erle
Loquacious
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: 25-22-28-0***-****0
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It does, doesn't it!
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Leithal
Learned Hand
Reged: 08/01/09
Posts: 1002
Loc: Meridianville, AL
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Now Mr Erle, you weren't implying anything were you?
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erle
Loquacious
Reged: 04/05/08
Posts: 3179
Loc: 25-22-28-0***-****0
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ME!? 
Naaa... 
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Leithal
Learned Hand
Reged: 08/01/09
Posts: 1002
Loc: Meridianville, AL
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I don't think we have any White Trash around these parts, our machines are a bit tOo classy for that, maybe a few rednecks and country boys (myself included). Maybe you meant DWIGHT Trash. J/K 
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MarcellusWallace
Adjunct
Reged: 05/23/10
Posts: 110
Loc: VA, USA
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There is a very nice article about counter steering in this month's ( July ) Motorcycle Consumer News. I ready and thought and read and thought on and off for years. Never got it until now, after reading that article and riding my bicycle today.
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Yota
Loquacious
Reged: 01/13/05
Posts: 4183
Loc: Adairville, KY
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Did you try to countersteer Grace?
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we should do this every weekend!
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