bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12689
Loc: Long Island, NY
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I still think the biggest problem is the conclusions drawn. Just because someone proves something isn't bad, doesn't mean it IS good. See? Also, I think uncofrtunately a lot of times the real scientists/statisticians aren't the ones turning the good study into the conclusions. Someone hires someone else to compile everything, then they use it however they see fit.
-------------------- Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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bonnyusa
Big Bore
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 9218
Loc: Ft. Liquordale, Fl.
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Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
-------------------- "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3166
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
There is usually so little action on this part of the forum that it can go days with nothing. Now you have us posting several times a day.
-------------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3166
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Also, I think uncofrtunately a lot of times the real scientists/statisticians aren't the ones turning the good study into the conclusions. Someone hires someone else to compile everything, then they use it however they see fit.
A great example is the latest UN Global Warming report. The conclusions were reported before the data was released. Although I have not read the report I've have heard that the data does not support the conclusions. A prime example of exactly what you said.
-------------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12689
Loc: Long Island, NY
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And they seem to be more civil here too I like it. It's ok if nothing happens for a few days here, at least when it does happen it is for a good reason.
-------------------- Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Saltatrix
Adjunct
Reged: 05/04/06
Posts: 186
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Walt, Larry, I am really enjoying this debate. Perhaps the Legislation forum is not so 'esoteric' after all?
There is usually so little action on this part of the forum that it can go days with nothing. Now you have us posting several times a day.
I guess most people surf the forum thru the main forum page by topic. i rarely do that and instead click on "show all posts from the last 24 hrs", then I just keep scrolling down and read the stuff that's new, or at least new to me.
-------------------- A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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Saltatrix
Adjunct
Reged: 05/04/06
Posts: 186
Loc: Long Island, NY
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OK , here I go again! In standard statistical hypothesis testing, to be considered "statistically significant" results need to fall within either a 95% or a 90% confidence interval (CI). What that means is that the likelihood of achieving the same results merely by chance is either 5% (100% -95%) or 10% (100% - 90%), respectively. By convention those are the only CI's used and whichever one is selected is always specified. A paper would never appear in a reputable journal if it wasn't. Both standards are very conservative. No reputable scientist would seriously fault a study for using 90% rather than 95%, especially since it largely depends on sample size. A former professor of mine explained all this to us using baseball data. When comparing runs scored vs. number of wins for one of the leagues using a common statistical test there was found to be no relationship at all at either of the CI's. Only when data from the other league was added increasing the sample size was a significant relationship found but only at the lesser 90% standard. Let's face it. Anyone can tell you that the more runs you score the better chance you have of winning the game. This is elementary, right? It proves that teams who score more runs tend to win more games. Nope, it doesn't. At least not to the same folks who exploit the naivety of the public by discrediting perfectly good science in order to push their agenda. If you think that folks aren't really that ignorant about science and easy to mislead just remember the OJ Simpson trial when Johnny Cochran convinced a jury that DNA evidence isn't really evidence at all! So they let the friggin' guy go free! What's ironic is that people are condemned to death on waaaaay less evidence than something as irrefutable as DNA. Another irony is that scientists, the people best equipped to defend their discipline from those who would pervert it for their own gains, remain largely silent because the minute they speak up they're accused of bias and pushing their own agenda! Nobody wants to damage their reputation so its dammed if they do, dammed if they don't. Imagine if lobbyists and activists of all kinds, journalists, pundits, Political Action Committee members, environmentalists, industry groups, advocates, lawyers, judges, and of course, politicians had some sort of specified standard to live up to, something even remotely resembling the statistical rigor that science demands of itself? By the way, do helmet laws save lives, or does secondhand smoke cause lung cancer, or does fossil fuel combustion warm the planet? Is their any scientific evidence of any of this? It doesn't matter because an industry rep, or lobbyist with a sexy assistant, a box of cuban cigars, and Super Bowl tickets has much more influence on the legislative process than something as capricious and fickle as science.
Walt
-------------------- A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3166
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Doesn't everyone have an identification bar code tattoo under their scrotum?
Worlds Worst Job. Scrotum ID scanner!
-------------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12689
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Another irony is that scientists, the people best equipped to defend their discipline from those who would pervert it for their own gains, remain largely silent because the minute they speak up they're accused of bias and pushing their own agenda!
See scientists are smart 
Well said Walt with lots of good points. Funny how it seems like just about every college stats class is basically a professor proving how stats are BS! Same at my school.
-------------------- Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Saltatrix
Adjunct
Reged: 05/04/06
Posts: 186
Loc: Long Island, NY
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I wouldn't go so far as to call them BS, but as far as being able to lie with them, you sure can. Not so much when they're used by professionals but when someone throws out very misleading little statistical tidbits. For instance, "Child victims of gun violence have increased by x% over the past decade." What they're not telling you is that the definition of children had changed from those under 16 to those under 18. Of course there's more "child" victims now, 16-18 year olds comprise most of the nation's gang members!
So as not to be considered getting political, here's another example from the other side of the political fence, "This administration has saved x% more wetlands than the previous administration." Sure, that's true, especially when you change the definition of what's a wetland a month before you made this speech! The truth is under the old definition your administration has allowed the destruction of more wetlands than any other administration is history!
Both of these statements, BTW were made in State of the Union addresses by recent former presidents!
Lies, Dammed Lies, Statistics, Politicians!!!
-------------------- A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Nietzsche
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