Rob_Mayes
Adjunct
Reged: 12/23/07
Posts: 195
Loc: Central IL USA
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Anyone watch the grilling of the Oil Executives by congress last night on Cspan? What did you think? 
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gimpy
Adjunct
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 247
Loc: Cedar Rapids Iowa
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from what I understand the oil companys profit about 10 cents per gallon of gas, sounds fair to me
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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I want to know who's watching the guys who sell milk and eggs! They've gone up a lot more than gas.
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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clanrickarde
Loquacious
Reged: 03/04/06
Posts: 2526
Loc: Tucson , Az
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I wanna know whose watching the peeps who sell us the crude from the middle east. 
Now.... there you will find your money grubbers.
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"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Bucky
Loquacious
Reged: 05/21/06
Posts: 3971
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The oil patch folk have more power than any congress in any land. I didn't see the show, but I expect it was posturing & posing by the lawmakers, as opposed to actually getting anything done, like - price controls or even a viable energy policy passed as legislation. (Ha ha ha ha)
The other oddity - how many US companies not in oil can afford to build refineries as venture capitalists, but do not? A GE, Microsoft, or any of the huge investment banks could afford a few refineries, then sell them off and make a pile of dough, but they do not. Why? The EPA regs for one. Endless Nimby lawsuits with no help from congress to prevent them for another.
A better question might be, why does congress allow fuel taxes of around 60 cents or more per gallon? 390 million gallons of gas are sold every day in the US. In a year, that's roughly $85,410,000,000.00 in fuel taxes per year.
Then there's the revenue collected on diesel fuel...
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Our energy policy is to prevent drilling here in the US that might reduce our dependence on foreign oil and drive down the price. To prevent the construction of new refineries that might reduce the price shocks caused everytime one of them shuts down. To prevent the building of nuclear power plants thus reducing oil, gas or coal use and get cheaper electricity.
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bogie
Adjunct
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 485
Loc: Cumming, Ga
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Even the US (democratic) Congress can not repeal the law of supply and demand!
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Bucky
Loquacious
Reged: 05/21/06
Posts: 3971
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Quote:
Even the US (democratic) Congress can not repeal the law of supply and demand!
Sure there's some of that, but also the manipulation of pricing and the fact that less than 30 or 40 people set the barrel prices of oil for the entire world, then the commodities folk jack the prices skyward from there.
The oil folk tell us there are shortages of diesel and home heating oil. Diesel has been in production for around 100 years, and they haven't figured out how to make enough by now?
Cough - Bull----
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bogie
Adjunct
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 485
Loc: Cumming, Ga
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Question
Who makes more "profit" from a gallon of gas; "big oil" or "big government"?
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Rob_Mayes
Adjunct
Reged: 12/23/07
Posts: 195
Loc: Central IL USA
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Quote:
from what I understand the oil companys profit about 10 cents per gallon of gas, sounds fair to me
Yes the oil companies make no more than 10 per gallon on downstream profits, but the upstream profits are massive.
An analogy: A builder builds a home, his wife is a real estate agent. She sells the house and makes 7%. Later he tells someone he made 7% on that house, what he forget to mention is that he made 30 percent profit on building the house.
The oil companies have upstream production profits and down stream profits. The upstream profits include the difference between acquiring crude oil and selling it to their refinery. The down stream profits are what is left after refining, marketing, shipping, and retail expenses. When oil companies talk of profit per gallon that is downstream profits, they fail to mention that they make a Shi_Load on the upsteam operations. 
I do not know were political bribes are expensed to. 
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unclecharlie
Loquacious
Reged: 02/17/06
Posts: 3096
Loc: USA-CT-NORWALK
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The part of this equation that I think is often left out
isn't oil, but food. The US used to be the bread basket of
the world. Now, we're growing corn to make ethanol/gas mix
that uses more energy to produce than it yields, Duh?
The Middle East may have oil, but they can't grow food,
and they can't eat the oil.
We've gotten ourselves on the wrong side of this whole
supply/demand thing, and it's gonna cost us dearly in
the near future, at least. Unless something is done.
What should be done? I'm not sure.
But, the rich are going to get richer,
and the poor are going to get poorer.
And I'm gonna ride my bike, and go fishing,
Uncle Charlie
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Greybeard
Monkey Butt
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 7870
Loc: Charming Clovis NM
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To quote the guy who does the morning farm report, "There isn't enough food in food to affect the prices". For example, a $4.something box of cornflakes has about 10 cents worth of corn in it.
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Pain is nature's way of saying, "We know where you live".
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unclecharlie
Loquacious
Reged: 02/17/06
Posts: 3096
Loc: USA-CT-NORWALK
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Not if the farmer doesn't plant corn.
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Yeah the way milk and egg prices flux, then I would think the corn thing would too.
I saw a thing on Ethanol, and I think they said they use 1 gallong of crude for every 1.5 gallons produced. I could have it backward tho... Even still, it's not very efficient!
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Greybeard
Monkey Butt
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 7870
Loc: Charming Clovis NM
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The "good ol' boys" used to use the corn stalks to fire the still. The rich ones who could afford TP even used the cobs in the fire. After the mash was fermented and the results drained off, the remaining corn pulp was fed to the livestock. Nothing went to waste and no petroleum products were harmed in the process.
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Pain is nature's way of saying, "We know where you live".
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Saw a thing on TV the other day that Coors makes Ethanol from some of the beer byproducts. THAT is smart ethanol, not farming corn for the sake of ethanol.
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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RamSound
Loquacious
Reged: 08/09/05
Posts: 2706
Loc: Mary Esther, FL
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Higher oil costs = higher oil retail prices. It's the record oil company profits part that I'm not too clear on.
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Bob
2005 America, 904cc BB, SS long slash cuts, UNI with NH bellmouth, jet kit with needles in top position, drilled slides, 128/45 jets, 1.5 turns out, 18/42 sprockets.
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Feed prices are usually the major cost in the price of beef, eggs, milk and other animal agriculture. When the feed price jumps so does the cost of doing business for the producers. Cattle feeders are reducing their stock right now so expect beef prices to go up in the near future just like egg and milk prices have. Pork and chicken can't be far behind.
Land prices here in Iowa have shot up recently as the price of corn and soybeans has risen sharply. If the ethanol bubble bursts there will be a lot of farmers crying for a bailout because many of them will not be able to pay for the land and equipment they borrowed money to buy. Land prices will fall and we'll have an ag land crisis too.
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Higher oil costs = higher oil retail prices. It's the record oil company profits part that I'm not too clear on.
Some of them own wells too. If the cost of production is low, and it is for a lot of them, the profit on that end is very high.
It's ok with me though because I have oil stocks in my IRA and 401k. 
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Quote:
Saw a thing on TV the other day that Coors makes Ethanol from some of the beer byproducts. THAT is smart ethanol, not farming corn for the sake of ethanol.
I thought Coors was a beer byproduct 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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redbike7
3/4 Throttle
Reged: 07/24/06
Posts: 948
Loc: Cedar Park, Texas
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Everyone is taking this opportunity to gouge-it is ridiculous.
They use transportation as an excuse but many of the increases are way beyond the additional cost of oil.
A big thing hurting us is the lack of refineries-and one just had a major fire.
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Redbike7
2006 America
No amount of skill can overcome gross stupidity. Ask me how I know...never mind, I forgot...
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
I thought Coors was a beer byproduct
I think byproduct is being generous...
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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arstaren
Loquacious
Reged: 07/23/07
Posts: 3510
Loc: Southeast ,Iowa, USA
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Here's a weird thing. When I was a kid, gas was 50 cents a gallon and my grandma used to buy kerosene for 18 cents a gallon. Now, gas is 3.20 a gallon and kerosene is 3.60! I have always been told that kero is way cheaper to produce than gas. When did kerosene go crazy? When the new, efficient kerosene heaters became all the rage 15 years ago. Tell me that somebody isn't making a huge profit margin on kerosene, considering the aforementioned history!
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Fidelis et Fortis
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Here's a weird thing. When I was a kid, gas was 50 cents a gallon and my grandma used to buy kerosene for 18 cents a gallon. Now, gas is 3.20 a gallon and kerosene is 3.60! I have always been told that kero is way cheaper to produce than gas. When did kerosene go crazy? When the new, efficient kerosene heaters became all the rage 15 years ago. Tell me that somebody isn't making a huge profit margin on kerosene, considering the aforementioned history!
Kerosene, jet fuel and diesel are all pretty much the same thing so what affects the price of one will affect the price of the others. High oil prices, demand, reduced refinery capacities and distribution disruptions will raise the price of all of them. As an aside, here in Iowa there has been a substantial reduction in the amount of gasoline sold so the legislature is talking about a gas tax increase to make up the difference. Gee, thanks!
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I thought Coors was a beer byproduct
I think byproduct is being generous...
I remember when Coors wasn't sold in the Eastern US and people used to make Coors runs. Smokey and the Bandit comes to mind. 
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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East bound and down!
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
Here's a weird thing. When I was a kid, gas was 50 cents a gallon and my grandma used to buy kerosene for 18 cents a gallon. Now, gas is 3.20 a gallon and kerosene is 3.60! I have always been told that kero is way cheaper to produce than gas. When did kerosene go crazy? When the new, efficient kerosene heaters became all the rage 15 years ago. Tell me that somebody isn't making a huge profit margin on kerosene, considering the aforementioned history!
Kerosene, jet fuel and diesel are all pretty much the same thing so what affects the price of one will affect the price of the others. High oil prices, demand, reduced refinery capacities and distribution disruptions will raise the price of all of them. As an aside, here in Iowa there has been a substantial reduction in the amount of gasoline sold so the legislature is talking about a gas tax increase to make up the difference. Gee, thanks!
I think that the increase of diesel powered vehicles has had a direct effect on the price of fuel. And not just the demand aspect. The supply side is not able to keep up yet.
As Larry mentioned; jet fuel, kerosene, heating oil are all very similar so production of diesel may sometimes take a back seat. Kerosene may have the same fate, as demand (or supply) goes down, price goes up.
With diesel fuel, the taxes used to be paid by the main users-truckers through a different system so the tax wasn't included in the pump price. Back then if you had a diesel vehicle you paid very little for fuel and avoided the fuel tax. I worked at a shop in the mid '70s that did diesel conversions on pickup trucks, pretty cool stuff; a 3-71 or 4-71 Detroit in a one ton pickup with a Road Ranger  .
As another note to price, gasoline costs roughly ten times what it did 25 years ago. I make quite a bit more than ten times what my dad made in 1973.
Now I know that's not a very accurate guide to inflation, but it seems that gasoline is in the ballpark with everything else.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
With diesel fuel, the taxes used to be paid by the main users-truckers through a different system so the tax wasn't included in the pump price. Back then if you had a diesel vehicle you paid very little for fuel and avoided the fuel tax. I worked at a shop in the mid '70s that did diesel conversions on pickup trucks, pretty cool stuff; a 3-71 or 4-71 Detroit in a one ton pickup with a Road Ranger .
As another note to price, gasoline costs roughly ten times what it did 25 years ago. I make quite a bit more than ten times what my dad made in 1973.
Now I know that's not a very accurate guide to inflation, but it seems that gasoline is in the ballpark with everything else.
The father of one of my high school buddies had a Mercedes diesel that he kept in a garage heated with fuel oil. He had a 200 gallon fuel tank out back of the garage that occasionally ran empty in the middle of the summer. Seemed like most of the farmers had diesel powered pickups.
As opposed to the price of fuel. Electronic equipment is a fraction of what it used to cost. Much of the stuff we have now didn't exist when I was in college and it's dirt cheap. Cars and motorcycles are much better and, adjusted for inflation, usually cost less.
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Fun little tool here:
Inflation calculator
Looks like roughly 5x since 1973.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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So the $2,500 I spent in 1984 for my original Macintosh would be $5,140 now and the $1,200 for my first VCR in 1980 would be $3,385. 
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Put's things in perspective, doesn't it??
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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Rob_Mayes
Adjunct
Reged: 12/23/07
Posts: 195
Loc: Central IL USA
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Quote:
Fun little tool here:
Inflation calculator
Looks like roughly 5x since 1973.
I looks like the calculator does not work on wages. I entered $35,000 in 1973 and it says I should be making $171,000. I am going to check with my boss. 
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Rob_Mayes
Adjunct
Reged: 12/23/07
Posts: 195
Loc: Central IL USA
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[image] [/image]
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Greybeard
Monkey Butt
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 7870
Loc: Charming Clovis NM
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Quote:
I thought Coors was a beer byproduct
Coors is a "beer flavored drink", same as those fruit flavored drinks that are all water and artificial flavoring.
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Pain is nature's way of saying, "We know where you live".
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
I thought Coors was a beer byproduct
Coors is a "beer flavored drink", same as those fruit flavored drinks that are all water and artificial flavoring.
So, it's Coorlade then.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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Troutman
Member
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 59
Loc: Scottish Borders
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Just to give you some idea of UK fuel prices at the moment.
Diesel is approx £1.15/litre or £5.20/gal or $9.88/gal.
Petrol (gas)is slightly cheaper. The reason for this is that a large percentage of UK drivers now drive diesel cars(VW BMW Merc Alfa etc) Government then wacks up the duty to compensate!
20 yrs ago diesel was half the cost of petrol.
Kerosene is now 54p/litre ($4.61gal) this was approx 18p/litre 10 yrs ago and 34p/litre last year. 
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The_Dog33
Fe Butt
Reged: 02/01/07
Posts: 17042
Loc: NE PA USA
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I used to heat my house for years with Kerosene in my furnace instead of home heating oil (untaxed diesel) It burns cleaner and slightly cooler but it also didn't used to go up over winter like heating oil. Now it's more than heating oil, they caught on I guess. I can remember heating oil would jump from 75 cents a gal to about $1.25 while kero would stay steady at about 80 cents. Took some effort since I had to go get it unless I wanted to pay to have it delivered.
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I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
some shots of our bikes
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Troutman
Member
Reged: 06/18/07
Posts: 59
Loc: Scottish Borders
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Kerosene is what we use to heat our homes unless you are on gas (urban areas).
I installed a wood burner 3 years ago and that helps to reduce winter heating bills, I can get the wood for free apart from the gas for the chain saw.
Next oil reducing project is to get a wind turbine installed to provide hot water (when its windy).
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Gregu710
Loquacious
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 3918
Loc: Longmont, Colorado
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Quote:
Even the US (democratic) Congress can not repeal the law of supply and demand!
Even if it could, OPEC says it doesn't matter:
"Oil prices, there is a common understanding that has nothing to do with supply and demand," el-Badri said on the sidelines of an energy conference in Rome.
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Here in Iowa burning corn for heat is becoming more popular. Why bother turning it into alcohol when you can burn it straight?
http://www.sarcornfurnace.com/
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Those sort of like pellet stoves?
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Jonathan
Adjunct
Reged: 06/25/06
Posts: 177
Loc: NW, CT, USA:
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Read the AUP Jonathan
Edited by bonnyusa (05/12/08 01:06 PM)
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Content deleted
Geez, talk about a target rich post
Edited by bonnyusa (05/12/08 01:07 PM)
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ladisney
Loquacious
Reged: 01/12/05
Posts: 3183
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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Quote:
Those sort of like pellet stoves?
Similar except there is even less technology involved. Buy the corn directly from a farmer and put it into a small silo out back, no making little pellets out of wood or anything. A farmer friend of mine says he can heat his (rather large) house all winter off the corn grown on less than an acre. He should know since he grows it. Living less than a mile from corn fields I'm thinking about it myself
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"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington
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Gregu710
Loquacious
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 3918
Loc: Longmont, Colorado
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Quote:
Quote:
Those sort of like pellet stoves?
Similar except there is even less technology involved. Buy the corn directly from a farmer and put it into a small silo out back, no making little pellets out of wood or anything. A farmer friend of mine says he can heat his (rather large) house all winter off the corn grown on less than an acre. He should know since he grows it. Living less than a mile from corn fields I'm thinking about it myself
Wonder how that sucker would work on pine cones. God knows I've got enough of those ****** things in my yard to heat a 2500 sq ft house for 2 winters lately...
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Quote:
Wonder how that sucker would work on pine cones. God knows I've got enough of those ****** things in my yard to heat a 2500 sq ft house for 2 winters lately...
Or acorns. I had a pile that would have easily filled a 33 gal garbage can just from sweeping off my 20x20 deck all fall.
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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bigbill
Worn Saddle
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 6153
Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
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Quote:
Quote:
Wonder how that sucker would work on pine cones. God knows I've got enough of those ****** things in my yard to heat a 2500 sq ft house for 2 winters lately...
Or acorns. I had a pile that would have easily filled a 33 gal garbage can just from sweeping off my 20x20 deck all fall.
You may seriously be on to something there. Like all nuts, acorns have a very high fat content.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." ~ Bertrand Russell
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bennybmn
Should be Riding
Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 12693
Loc: Long Island, NY
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Hey who you callin a nut?!? I think next time I fire up the grill I'll toss a couple on and see how they burn
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Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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The_Dog33
Fe Butt
Reged: 02/01/07
Posts: 17042
Loc: NE PA USA
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Oil content in most nuts is true, I remember a trick when camping as a kid where we lit an almond to use as a candle.
EDIT: Maybe it was a cashew but it burned quite a while and lit the place well enough.
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I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
some shots of our bikes
Edited by The_Dog33 (04/29/08 07:21 PM)
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